Curse

Jeydra · Mar 16, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Goon Squad reppin with zero PvE skill bro!

Anyone else want to try to call me out?

Unless you're claiming that clearing the Underworld (actually, failing to clear the Underworld) is simply "c-spacing and rolling over PvE with very little if any coordination between people or ultra optimized builds", yes I'm calling you out.

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EDIT: The big difference here is a philosophical mindset. PvE is going from Point A to Point B and mobs are some of the things that are in the way. Any way you look at it you have to kill the mobs. Any other way you look at it you have to walk through and past the places where mobs are. So by going to where mobs are, pulling, and waiting for them to come to you, then the time it takes for the mobs to come to you is being wasted.I want you to seriously think about this, making them come to you is always going to take longer than just going to them. (this is of course assuming you will succeed, if pulling or tanking is the only way to succeed, then it is the only way to succeed).

Since when I did I even mention the world "pulling"? Proper aggro techniques need not include pulling. Lol. Like I said, take a look at how Life Bringing did his 17-minute-to-boss run in Ooze Pit.

By the way HM monsters move faster than players, just saying.

Reverend Dr · Mar 16, 2010, 04:10 AM // 04:10

We wiped at frozenwind, because no one, especially not a group that never pve's, has 3 of its players that have never even entered UW before, 3 that haven't done it in years, and a random pug, none with PvE skills, should never ever wipe at that quest. Everything else in UW HM we 6-man c-spacced our way through. I feel fully justified in saying PvE is easy, because what else is there? Is there some regular mission or something in the rest of regular pve that is so much harder that UW that we can't just c-space our way through? If I can just c-space through it, why should I ever bother to learn proper aggro?

Tenebrae · Mar 16, 2010, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The taunt skills in those games are the how aggro is controlled, they are not the why aggro is controlled. In those games it is no exaggeration that casters have less than half the hp of the warriors and take ten to twenty times the amount of damage. This is just not the case in GW as there is not nearly that amount of difference between warrior armor and caster armor. Though if your warrior is bringing the wonderful PvE skill SY, then the warrior is now the softest target in the group, still no reason to tank.

Uh , dont lose yourself into words pal , you just made a false claim and thats it. Taunt skills in many games are ONE way to control and HOLD aggro , not the only one. If you know how aggro works in every game then you should know that there are many variables to it so dont be mistaken , you control aggro to avoid your healers/squishies to get hit , that is WHY you do that.
How you do that varies from one game to another and even within the same game and like i said before , no , all MMORPGS are not the same. A stupid movement or not well timed CD of a taunt skill can lead to a wipe in some of them and thats it.

Also for the c+space part , thats way too much. C+space doesnt include team synergy or team skill sync. By saying you can C+Space the game with ease that means you can roll thru any pve HM content with any random build you like and using that tactic ( C+Space ).
Choosing the right team , skills and synergy between them actually in GW requires SKILL ( ofc not if someone gives you entire team conf and builds to play ) because you cant use all char skills in 1 zone .

Seriously "general talking" sometimes is accurate enough but sometimes is the very way to be wrong , like this case. Like Jeydra said , there are many missions , and some of them non elite ( extra cooperative missions for example ) that requires a lot more than C+Space .

Jeydra · Mar 16, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

We wiped at frozenwind, because no one, especially not a group that never pve's, has 3 of its players that have never even entered UW before, 3 that haven't done it in years, and a random pug, none with PvE skills, should never ever wipe at that quest. Everything else in UW HM we 6-man c-spacced our way through. I feel fully justified in saying PvE is easy, because what else is there? Is there some regular mission or something in the rest of regular pve that is so much harder that UW that we can't just c-space our way through? If I can just c-space through it, why should I ever bother to learn proper aggro?

Because you tried c-spacing through it and wiped?

I'll also say that yes, PvE is easy - and I do most of my PvE H/H, not with 8 human players. Nonetheless, against the harder areas in the game PvE is easy because I use proper aggro techniques. Don't learn the techniques if you want, but if you don't, don't say stupid things like "really, warriors are about heavy single target damage", and don't try to defend that stupid statement either.

qvtkc · Mar 16, 2010, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I feel fully justified in saying PvE is easy, because what else is there? Is there some regular mission or something in the rest of regular pve that is so much harder that UW that we can't just c-space our way through? If I can just c-space through it, why should I ever bother to learn proper aggro?

What else is there? Eh Domain of Anguish?

Also, c-spacing is proper aggro. Sending in some guy with Endure Pain and Life Barrier on him isn't.

Reverend Dr · Mar 16, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Whatever man. We lost at frozenwind, because frozenwind died, because we didn't realize about the second spawn, if you hadn't noticed when frozenwind dies your party wipes. Any group of any composition with any type of philosophy on aggroing mobs would have also lost if they didn't bother to address that second group. Everything, including the large dryder spawn at the reaper was six man c-spacced through with no difficulty.

Like I said before this is a matter of philosophical differences. To me GW is still a game based around warriors doing damage through the adrenal system. To correctly use that system the more aggressive you are, the more hits you get, the more adrenaline you get, the more +dmg adrenal skills you can use.

maxxfury · Mar 16, 2010, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

To me GW is still a game based around warriors doing damage through the adrenal system. To correctly use that system the more aggressive you are, the more hits you get, the more adrenaline you get, the more +dmg adrenal skills you can use.

THAT you cant deny! Its just how gw was built

But there is still merit in some agro management ^ even if just that you just take a second or two to let a patrol move over so you can wipe one mob, then the patrol, instead of both groups at once in a much riskier maneuver. THATS just common sense surely?

Jeydra · Mar 17, 2010, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Like I said before this is a matter of philosophical differences. To me GW is still a game based around warriors doing damage through the adrenal system. To correctly use that system the more aggressive you are, the more hits you get, the more adrenaline you get, the more +dmg adrenal skills you can use.

The only reason you get less hits in when you use proper aggro techniques is because mobs die faster lol. Also if you seriously think the technique that kills all the monsters faster is somehow less aggressive, I rest my case.

By the way most of the UW isn't hard, so no comment there.

EDIT: Actually the more I think of it the more I believe your party did use aggro techniques, but since you didn't notice its effects, then one of these must be true:

1) Your party didn't have AoE;
2) You didn't notice the AoE going off;
3) You (as the Warrior) didn't gather aggro properly.

Nonetheless considering how much of the UW is 8v4 (or less), AoE matters less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Also, c-spacing is proper aggro. Sending in some guy with Endure Pain and Life Barrier on him isn't.

Proper aggro isn't sending someone in with Endure Pain and Life Barrier. If a Warrior needs that much to stay alive, either 1) fire the healers or 2) fire the Warrior for using pre-searing armour.

Life Bringing · Mar 17, 2010, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Are people seriously arguing that leeroying is more effective than balling? As a warrior, whirlwind and splinter weapon should be a given. It should also be a given that your party has a copy of prot spirit/spirit bond. Micro it onto yourself, run in and take 5 seconds to get the melee in a decent position on yourself, and make them explode. You just took out half the mob in an extremely short amount of time with minimal energy spent by your party/heroes. Lack of melee means your party can spend more time killing the casters and less time worrying about taking a hammer to the face.

In certain areas(such as UW), walls are EXTREMELY abundant. If you're not using them, urdoinitwrong. Pull shit along a corner and either bodyblock the melee or death's charge into the casters, and make them explode. PvE is simple, IF you know how to control the way monsters react and what they are allowed to hit. There's no reason for a vanilla agro system because the AI is so terribly predictable that it's unnecessary. As Jeydra has been pointing out, some groups even come pre balled! How freaking nice is that? Ooze pit and every group of charr in eotn is just waiting for aoe abuse because of how they are balled.

qvtkc · Mar 17, 2010, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Are people seriously arguing that leeroying is more effective than balling?

If you do it right those two are the same thing.

Tenebrae · Mar 17, 2010, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

If you do it right those two are the same thing.

If you do leeroying the right way , you die and the rest of your group is wiped lol.

What was this thread about ? oh yes , aoe skills on a bar except single target damage. Well , nothing to worry about , try both. Many suggestions on the paper but the best thing you can do is try it yourself.

maxxfury · Mar 17, 2010, 09:30 PM // 21:30

If you go back to the source or origins or a "leeroy" properly, then to successfully emulate mr jenkins, or "to leeeroy", you need to cause a party wipe via charging and agroing a whole areas monsters while your party not ready.

Hence ,

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If you do leeroying the right way , you die and the rest of your group is wiped lol.

Is quite right..

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=leeroy

Unless ofc by leeroying you mean super aggressive balls deep warrioring? which is kinda different..cos unless your retarded you party will be ready and your will be buffed and set to go nuts..

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

If you do it right those two are the same thing.

If you do it right, balling is much faster. Like I said, look at the screenshots Life Bringing posted from Ooze Pit. Recently EFGJack posted another heap of screenshots as well, further highlighting the point.

qvtkc · Mar 23, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you do it right, balling is much faster.

No, as I said, they are the same thing. Leeroying in the sense of running straight in like a complete maniac is the most effective ways to ball enemies. Running around with Shadow Form or Dolyak Signet or whatever that your average meatshield uses is a pointless waste of time.

For some reason (I'm at work) I can't see the screenshots. Can someone explain the gist of them to me?

Jeydra · Mar 23, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Don't get too stereotyped - to ball opponents you do not need Shadow Form or Dolyak Signet or Defy Pain or whatever your average meatshield uses. What you do need is Protective Spirit. Spirit Bond and Shield of Absorption luxury. With these tools, all of which can be brought on a hero, you can unleash AoE.

Leeroying and balling are very different. When balling, you gather aggro onto yourself. When leeroying, you don't.

Screenshots basically show the bars on player, heroes and the four henchmen used, in various areas of the game, together with the time taken to clear it. If you look at the builds used, you (should, at least) immediately recognize how those kinds of speed were achieved.

EFGJack · Mar 23, 2010, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

No, as I said, they are the same thing. Leeroying in the sense of running straight in like a complete maniac is the most effective ways to ball enemies. Running around with Shadow Form or Dolyak Signet or whatever that your average meatshield uses is a pointless waste of time.

For some reason (I'm at work) I can't see the screenshots. Can someone explain the gist of them to me?

Poor troll is poor. in the last paragraph you (indirectly) state you have no clue what 'agro techniques' are yet you deny the effectiveness of these techniques.
/points at SCs that rely on balling shit with SF, you've heard of it.

qvtkc · Mar 24, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Leeroying and balling are very different. When balling, you gather aggro onto yourself. When leeroying, you don't.

Perhaps I misused the word. What I meant was rushing in quickly, which would automatically put aggro on you since well, there's no one else nearby. Balling on the other hand would mean walking around gathering mobs in a rather slow and cumbersome process which can only be done if you use some sort of maintainable invincibility (not PS).

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFGJack

Poor troll is poor. in the last paragraph you (indirectly) state you have no clue what 'agro techniques' are yet you deny the effectiveness of these techniques.
/points at SCs that rely on balling shit with SF, you've heard of it.

If you mean UWSC and such, I think those teams split up and basically soloed the place? Not much aggro techniques in use there. Or do you mean stuff like the Deep in 11 minutes or whatever? I honestly don't know how they do it, and unless it can be reliably replicated by a large amount of people, the result is worthless in a general discussion.
Though maybe you can point me to a detailed explanation of how to do it.

Life Bringing · Mar 28, 2010, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Perhaps I misused the word. What I meant was rushing in quickly, which would automatically put aggro on you since well, there's no one else nearby. Balling on the other hand would mean walking around gathering mobs in a rather slow and cumbersome process which can only be done if you use some sort of maintainable invincibility (not PS).

Balling is very quick and easy if you have walls to abuse, and you definitely don't need sf to do it. As you can see from EFGJack's screens, he did forge HM WITHOUT PS, using balling tactics. The only skill you *really* need is SoA, but PS and SB, of course, help.

Quote:

If you mean UWSC and such, I think those teams split up and basically soloed the place? Not much aggro techniques in use there. Or do you mean stuff like the Deep in 11 minutes or whatever? I honestly don't know how they do it, and unless it can be reliably replicated by a large amount of people, the result is worthless in a general discussion.
Though maybe you can point me to a detailed explanation of how to do it.

I like how you say something is bad and inefficient, and yet you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Every sc in the game except for UW has abused tank and spank and agro techniques. Especially urgoz and DoA, where pulling through a tank is necessary to get a solid ball set up.

Balling bad AI is as simple as finding a wall, protting yourself from heroes flagged one agro bubble behind you. Cancel the flag and let the heroes attack a bit. Return them to their previous position. You now have a ball of everything in the mob just waiting to die.

qvtkc · Mar 30, 2010, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I like how you say something is bad and inefficient, and yet you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Every sc in the game except for UW has abused tank and spank and agro techniques. Especially urgoz and DoA, where pulling through a tank is necessary to get a solid ball set up.

Well you know I've been to the Deep and we did it exactly using that method. And you know what? After more than an hour we were still at it. Admittedly, it was a rather fail PUG team, but it's not as if we took long breaks between each fight. So I'm still waiting for an explanation on how the hell you can do it in 11 minutes. I mean, I don't doubt those screens, I just want to know how it's done.

Also what about normal PvE like missions.

Jeydra · Mar 31, 2010, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Perhaps I misused the word. What I meant was rushing in quickly, which would automatically put aggro on you since well, there's no one else nearby. Balling on the other hand would mean walking around gathering mobs in a rather slow and cumbersome process which can only be done if you use some sort of maintainable invincibility (not PS).

It doesn't take that long. Prot Spirit suffices, Spirit Bond if you're really worried. Don't flag the heroes so far they ignore you and don't heal you of course. That's how I did it; my Elementalist's lower AL might have had an effect here. If you're a Warrior, I'd guess PS / SB / SoA or whatever is needed to ensure you survive.

You should be able to ball the melee monsters onto you easily within a few seconds. If there are no other targets, who else would they attack but you? HM monsters run faster as well, so they close the distance quickly. If there's a corner, it's even easier.